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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:19 pm 
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Wow, that was a heck of a post, Mith. (And I thought I was wordy!) :-)

It has occasionally occurred to me that Torg's goofball façade is like a defence mechanism. It keeps people from seeing who he really is. I have wondered if he wasn't hurt at some point in his youth, and this was his way of coping. Now, as you say, it's become a habit.

As for Riff, I think his personality is quite fragile. He projects the "strong, silent type" persona, but that's just to hide the weakness within. Rather the reverse of Torg's personality, really. Torg becomes the center of attention; Riff shies away from it. His women troubles are symptomatic of this. Any time someone gets close enough to see the "inner Riff" he does something to drive them away. He may not consciously know that he's doing it, or why, but there it is. It happens every time. The only person he's ever let get that close is Torg. Without Torg, Riff's personality starts to crumble. We've seen some of the possible results of that.

I blame Dr. Lorna. Ye gods, what a piece of work!

On a related note, I would very much like to meet Our Heroes' parents. We know that Riff's father is an archaeologist, but other than that, they're complete cyphers.

--tll

I'm not a psychologist, nor do I play one on TV. :-)

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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 5:46 pm 
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That was one impressive post there. As for ages, we know for a fact that Zoe was born in 1979, so she's presumably 29ish now. I think that the guesstimates on the rest are pretty spot on.

As for Riff, I hope that he gets a story for himself. I'm interested in seeing him deal with something for once, even though I'm a big fan of Torg.

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 Post Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:26 pm 
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Compare and contrast:

Riff (1998): No, I just don't think. It's policy.

Torg (2007): It's not that I don't think, it's just that I don't like to think unless I have to. Not thinking just comes naturally to me.

Just thought I'd throw that into the mix! ;-)

As to Dr Lorna, the fact that Riff blames her for everything wrong in his life is part of the problem! She's his all-purpose scapegoat and he has problems facing up to responsibility (and guilt) because of it. I know they're not the same, but this scenewith Alt-Riff seems rather telling. Alt-Riff spends about two seconds admitting his guilt then switches straight back to feeling sorry for himself as soon as Torg shows any signs of actually blaming him. It's as if Riff can bear to say "this is my fault" to himself, but can't stand anyone else to say it to him (and we can all empathise, right?). His default mode is 'victim' and he's always looking for ways to defend himself, including developing the best possible offence.

I also think Riff's father and step-mother should share a little of the blame for Riff turning out near-pathogically avoidant, chronically angry and borderline depressive. Lorna left when Riff was only nine; loving, involved parenting from his step-mother and father should have been enough to help Riff overcome a Dr Lorna'd start in life. But judging by how little contact Riff has with his father now - and his step-mother has never been mentioned after those first few strips - I'd say his relationships with both were weak. Maybe his step-mother never bonded with Riff, and his father certainly seems fanatical about his work...

Another thing. It's true that Riff pushes people away, but it's also notable that he is rarely without a girlfriend. Pretty classic insecure behaviour, which makes sense. The worrying, and relevant to the OP, thing is that his relationships with girlfriends have been getting more and more unhealthy. Dating Sasha was the high point - Riff chose someone who represented the best elements of his life; Torg's cheerful and understanding nature, combined with his own enjoyment of inventions and ideas. It's as if he was accepting himself, growing beyond his bad start. Then came the revelation that he'd been working for the bad guys. That pretty much destroyed what self-respect he'd grown and he punished himself by pushing Sasha away and spiraled into depression. Nana represented Riff's worst traits - anger, bitterness, aggression, paranoia. Now Riff's gone even further, actively seeking out the misery, frustration and confusion that characterised his early childhood, as if he's feeling so lost he's clinging to what he knows best, however hideous. Scary stuff.

Lastly, just a quick bit about Torg. His parentage is so mysterious! He gives the impression of coming from a stable and loving, if perhaps wacky, family, yet we never hear /anything/ about his parents. He never visits anyone for holidays, he never gets emails or phone calls. So what - he grew up in the world's most supportive orphanage?? We know about Riff's father and mother, Bun-bun's mother, Aylee's race, Gwynn's extended family (that crossover thing), Zoe's family. Only Kiki and Torg are without origin and much as I love Kiki, Torg's the one who's got me intrigued!

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:25 am 
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To be fair, we don't know a lot about anyone's past/family. We barely know anything about Riff's father other than the fact that he has one, we don't know what Bun Bun even is, we know zero about Gwynn's mother and father, and we don't even conclusively have ages for most of the characters.

On top of that, we don't have last names for any of them.

Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Torg's parents were Kada and Calix.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:34 am 
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Cappycap wrote:
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Torg's parents were Kada and Calix.


... Hmm. Causality implosion imminent in 3... 2... 1...

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:30 am 
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Thanks for the compliments, although, for me they're pretty much standard debate sized posts. :sasha:

But in any case, I would like to address Lurking's idea of Torg's attitude as a defensive mechanisim. Because it is a defensive mechanisim. In two folds really; the first is that because Torg switches to goofball mode, he won't have to worry about showing weakness to those around him, and second (perhaps more importantly), he doesn't have to acknowledge it. When Torg is under pressure, he doesn't think on it, he just gives a goofy reaction, often with puns and horrible jokes. In fact, if you look in his first visit to the Dimension of Pain:

Horribus: Why can’t we use his fears against him?

Psyke: The long of it is, he does not explore the consequences in depth, so he has no unknown fears to confront. And his memories are limited, so he has no fears from his past. The only things he seems to “fear” stem from simpler things we would not even regard.

http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=980505

This is how Torg deals with stress and fear; he just doesn't explore it, he ignores it and hides under the goofball act in order to deal with the situation. The Zoe incident is different, simply because it was strong enough to shatter Torg's paticuarly effective manner of dealing with things. That's why he became so depressed for so long, and why he still has issues with it now.

And as for the idea of Torg having a poor relationship with one or both parents...that's actually a very distinct possibility. During the Stormbreaker Saga (if I recall correctly), he mentioned fencing, and although it was a joke, the figure scolding him in the memory sounds like a very harsh father figure, so that may be it. Granted, his personality sure does seem like there's an issue between him and his parent(s), since something like that typically develops due to extended periods of emotional damage, although it doesn't per say have to be a parenting issue. He could have seen a particuarly horriblie murder, or some such.

Of course, the fact that we've seen both Riff's and Zoe's parents, but I fail to even recall one event including Torg's parents, is pretty telling in how close they are. I mean, Dr. Lorna is Riff's mother and they've spent more on-comic time hanging out together than Torg's. Granted, this is the same for Gwynn, but given her mood swings, they're were probably happy to get rid of her.


In any case, onto Riff!

It was mentioned during his sessions with the therapist, that when confronted with his problems, he put down his excessive inventing to when Dr.Lorna actually seemed proud of him that ONE time at a science fair, and he's just been inventing ever since just to get that same reaction (although it may not be a conscious act most of the time). Given the fact that he'd managed to impress his mother, and that he actually entered a science fair, I suggest that Riff already had strong tendencies toward this area, and became obsessed with being smart, inventive, and successful simply because it would make his mother proud.

Now, to understand this, we should also look into his parents for a moment. His mother is a bitch, but why is she so? Clearly no one is born that way. Well, I suspect that Dr. Lorna was actually a lot like Zoe when she was younger. She was a young woman looking to make her way in the world, and then she met Riff's father. Now, according to Zoe's comment of "she must have had him young", the manner in which it seems to be potrayed is that she was still in highschool when she had him, which would explain why she and his father didn't last long. Well, at best we could put that around the ages of 8-10, which would put Lorna at 25-27 when the fair took place, which would have had a very massive impact upon someone who feels like they've been neglected for most of their life. In any case, I think Lorna started heading south when she became pregnant with Riff, simply because of the stress given to someone at that age, and in the seventies to boot. Lorna probably lost most of her friends, and was/is probably a perfectionist. This would explain her own attitude, as to why she constantly blames others for her troubles, is over critical, always on the offensive, and is always playing the victim (or at least, she seems like the type to do that). Now take that person, and put them into a position where her public face has been tarnished, and now she's stuck with a kid. She'd hate the father, and probably to an extent, blame the child, although this may not be a conscious act in and of itself.

His father however, is another story. The way they keep in touch suggests to me that although Riff knows his father loves him, his father was just never there. In essence, he's been given gifts, praise, and attention from his father, but such things are from afar, and he was never around when Riff really needed him there. This also suggests to me that although Riff's father might be a great guy, he's probably more in love with his work than he would be with a woman, and that probably didn't help Lorna out at all, and I'm sure what help sent her down the path of crazy.

In any case, when we take these two individuals, and we pass not only their natures, but their nurture along to Riff, we see a very sensative personality formed from jagged glass. Riff is constantly throwing himself into his work, ignoring all others save for his buddy Torg, who is perhaps the only family he's ever truly had. This would impart, explain why someone as hot headed as Gwynn, could never really understand Riff, or possibly hold a successful relationship with him. Indeed, she seemed more pissed off that someone dumped her, rather than out of a true feeling of no longer having a relationship with said person. Why Riff would be attracted to someone like that in the first place is to an extent, understandable; since I do recall someone mentioning (on some other forum), that people typically look for aspects that not only match them, but to an extent, their parents. This would explain why Riff might be attracted to someone as reckless and spiteful as Gwynn, as in a way, she acts a great deal like how I'd imagine a young Lorna would have acted.

Now granted, there is another aspect to Riff's personality that isn't as apparent with his other issues, and that's his burning desire to push the world into black and white. To me, this could be a few things, but I doubt it's something that's just there to distract him from his deeper issues, since Riff seemed really hurt when he discovered that he'd been working for the bad guys for years. I think this might be a part of him that came to being because he was so emotionally damaged as a child, with him identifying those that cause pain to be evil. As in honest-to-God-satan-evil you see in the bible. In his mind, there is white, and then there is black. That's why he had such a hard time seeing Sam as nothing more than an undead minion of evil, and why he acts like the group's paladin. Now granted, he isn't above summoning a demon for beer and risking the world, but that may have just been part of a secret desire for the demon to have gotten loose, and Riff having to go out in a blaze of glory. In fact, we see this a couple of times in the series. During the Kzk story arc, we were told that an exchange of energy was seen flashing at the scene of the battle. Now, given that the banishing would have failed, then Riff would have assuredly switched to guns blazing, and I wouldn't put high stock in riff surviving in any way. Another push to be the hero was clearly in the arc where the house got pulled into another dimension; Riff went out of his way to stop Gwynn from doing something, claiming he was "union", suggesting that he had to do it because he's the hero, and that's what a hero does. Now granted, he had a better idea, and it worked, but I think it clearly shows that Riff has a great desire to be a hero, but it isn't so much because he cares about others that much, but more of for himself (although, again, this may not be a conscious act).

However, this isn't to say that Riff is a walking cloud of despair, because we clearly see that he's more than willing to be goofy, even to the point of endangering himself and others. For the most part, we see this is when Torg is around, and everything is going well; but when Torg is gone, Riff loses his anchor and slowly begins to fall apart. I think the reason for this is because Torg was Riff's distraction. With Torg around, Riff didn't really have to deal with the problems he'd grown up with. The loss of Torg really shattered Torg to an extent, but I don't think it was the actual loss of Torg, or the fact that Torg matured since that time that's really done a numbering on Riff. Rather, I think it may be the fact that he's having to acknowledge the fact that he HAS problems. Before, Riff would just shrug and say "I dunno", or "let me check my notes" and never get back to it.

I believe that when Riff and Torg were younger, Riff would hang out with Torg because he needed the distraction (that is not to say he didn't like Torg, or doesn't care about him, but rather it was the need for a distraction that drove the friendship at first, and that Riff was relying more on Torg than he had at first realized), and as the friendship grew into something more stable, and as they years passed, this aspect of the friendship was forgotten, and to an extent, had healed somewhat. But when Torg was lost, Riff was not only faced with the tragedy of having lost his friend to a demon infested area (very dangerous), but he was forced to once again acknowledge his other, deeper issues. This is why despite Torg's return, he still doesn't seem 100% because of the emotional issues he's facing at the moment. And in a way, this shows. Zoe's comment on him becoming Torg is exactly that; Riff is in a way, starting to pick up Torg's habits of dealing with stress and deeper emotional issues.

As for his failings in his love life...well, there is the fact that Riff has never really been shown what a loving family does, and I suspect that he just does what his father did to him; he offers love and support, but he's NEVER really there for her when she needs him, and he's diving into a project rather than building their relationship.

Anyhow, my two cents.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 1:45 pm 
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These are all some pretty good psychological analyses. One thing that's been ignored, however, is their consciences. Zoë's and Gwynn's consciences are more or less standard good vs. bad (angel vs. devil). But Torg's devil seems dangerously insane -- and his attention deficit is worst than Kiki's. Riff's devil/angel in contrast are nearly identical. Is that a contrast to Mith's statement that Riff sees things in black & white? Or is Riff's division so absolute that it leaves no room for his own deviations into "good" vs "bad"?

Discuss.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 2:25 pm 
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swmartian wrote:
These are all some pretty good psychological analyses. One thing that's been ignored, however, is their consciences. Zoë's and Gwynn's consciences are more or less standard good vs. bad (angel vs. devil). But Torg's devil seems dangerously insane -- and his attention deficit is worst than Kiki's. Riff's devil/angel in contrast are nearly identical. Is that a contrast to Mith's statement that Riff sees things in black & white? Or is Riff's division so absolute that it leaves no room for his own deviations into "good" vs "bad"?

Discuss.


This is a good point. I'll definately have to give Torg some thought as to what his conscience represents, but Riff is a bit more apparent to me. Riff does see black and white, but he only applies that to everyone else. This is why we get Riff kidnapping other Torgs and doing somewhat questionable things (ethically). In essence, Riff WANTS the world to be black and white, but he himself is not. He's grey. This is why we see Riff constantly screaming about how evil demons, monsters, and undead are, but yet have him do questionably moral things himself. It's also a point that Riff in some cases, doesn't want to delve into a deeper thinking subject on morality, simply because it may be painful. This is on top of his hermit like existence, which makes it even harder for him to judge right and wrong.

To put simply, Riff doesn't really understand good or evil, right or wrong, and simply takes the most basic idea of black and white when it comes to judging those things, but when it comes down to something like say, not lying, he's more sketchy on that, simply because he doesn't know which one, or he studies the thing that gives him the greatest advantage and rolls with it, or failing that, how he feels about those involved. This is why we have Riff's two sides agreeing more than not; Riff simply does what he thinks is best for him, saving an emotional connection to said person/people involved. He doesn't truly care about what is right and what is wrong on a social level, but does hold an idealistic view for bigger things like aliens and vampires.

As for Torg, I think his conscience is harder to pin down. It may have to do with the idea that should Torg get out of control, he can come down to being a monster in his own right, and more than willing to kill to save those around him. While Torg is in control, he may not have a problem resisting his darker urgers, which may suggest horrible things to him, but such things are so terrible, that a sane mind would immediately dismiss it. However, if you were to push Torg on the brink, and then he decided to listen to said side, and could actually carry something as complicated as his side usually suggests, Torg could quickly make bun-bun look like Mr. Rogers.

We've seen some of this cruelty before, particuarly in the case of Riff and Torg stealling Zoe's books, his desire to kill Zoe's boyfriend, and perhaps other times when he acts like a jerk (a lesser evil, but still).

This is just a bit of guesswork though, since both of these are moral aspects of Torg and Riff's conscience, but it does suggest that their conscience is not balanced. Torg is either a goof-ball pacafist with a sharp tongue on occasion, or he can quickly become a cruel, homocidal maniac more than willing to kill someone without a second thought. Riff just doesn't like to think about how his actions should be subjected to a ethnical code, and instead just goes with whatever he wants to do, which is represented by his pair rarely if ever take an opposing side on a moral desicion.

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 5:16 pm 
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Mith the Godling wrote:
And as for the idea of Torg having a poor relationship with one or both parents...that's actually a very distinct possibility. During the Stormbreaker Saga (if I recall correctly), he mentioned fencing, and although it was a joke, the figure scolding him in the memory sounds like a very harsh father figure, so that may be it.

You recall correctly. However, I think the adult standing behind Torg is a deputy sheriff, or the like (note the outline of the badge on his chest). It's not a surprise that a law officer would be that stern with an obviously-delinquent teenager.

Mith the Godling wrote:
But when Torg was lost, Riff was not only faced with the tragedy of having lost his friend to a demon infested area (very dangerous), but he was forced to once again acknowledge his other, deeper issues.

Just to tighten the screws on Riff a little more... It's quite likely that Riff blames himself for that whole problem. Though it was an accident, it was still Riff's Dimensional Flux Agitator that sent Torg to the Dimension of Pain in the first place. If it were not for that, the demons would not have shown up to kill Torg every Halloween afterward (though Torg certainly seemed to handle that well). Nor would Torg have been lost for the better part of a year to the Dimension of Lame fighting for his life.

@swmartian: I had completely forgotten the shoulder consciences. My thought here is that the angels and devils seem to embody what the characters feel are their best and worst characteristics. Whether they are from anyone else's viewpoint is moot.

Mith seems to have Riff pretty well covered. As for Torg, it seems to me that Torg has recognized the worst parts of his character (and sees the angel as the opposite?) and embodied them as his shoulder devil. He realizes what he could do if he really loses control. ("Nobody knows, but I'm afraid all the time... of what I might do if I lose control." Micheal Garibaldi, "Babylon 5") His shoulder angel may be a pacifist, but Torg knows that sometimes it's necessary to fight. He told Alt-Gwynn as much in TRW.

So Riff and Torg are both deeply flawed characters. This is what makes them so interesting, and so human. A flawless character would be tedious, boring, and dull. Someone in another forum suggested that Pete has forgotten how to write Riff. I disagree. Pete has his characters down pat. It would be very easy to keep everything status quo. But Pete certainly knows the flaws in his characters. The fact that other characters have commented on Riff's strange behavior makes it obvious to me that Pete knows exactly what he's doing.

My two cents.

--tll

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 Post Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:45 pm 
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Mith the Godling wrote:
And as for the idea of Torg having a poor relationship with one or both parents...that's actually a very distinct possibility. During the Stormbreaker Saga (if I recall correctly), he mentioned fencing, and although it was a joke, the figure scolding him in the memory sounds like a very harsh father figure, so that may be it.

The Lost, Lurking wrote:
You recall correctly. However, I think the adult standing behind Torg is a deputy sheriff, or the like (note the outline of the badge on his chest). It's not a surprise that a law officer would be that stern with an obviously-delinquent teenager.


Actually, that's supposed to be a joke on the stereotypical "Irish Cop" (calling Torg 'Boy-o'), because remember, Torg's Viking heritage breaks Caucasianometers... ^_^

~~Schiz

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 1:19 am 
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I'd like to hear everyone's take on Zoe and Gwynn. I'm most interested in Zoe, though, because it is a rare day that we get to see events through her eyes. Usually it's a Torg or Riff filter, so we don't know much about what makes her "tick" as much.

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 Post Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 10:06 am 
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Cappycap wrote:
I'd like to hear everyone's take on Zoe and Gwynn. I'm most interested in Zoe, though, because it is a rare day that we get to see events through her eyes. Usually it's a Torg or Riff filter, so we don't know much about what makes her "tick" as much.


Actually, Zoe's the one we know the best (which goes to show we don't really know much about anything). We've seen her with her family, we've seen how she acts when she's not with the gang, we've seen her dangerously veering on the line separating her from becoming the next Lorna. Heck, she even stood remarkably well her ground against Oasis (though it wasn't Oasis' best day, in all fairness) and survived the Chillus cult's cloning catastrophe. She's after Torg, the character who's have had the most development and experienced most growth, from being the token female of the group she became a strong minded woman to be reckoned, though she's always been our beloved gang's Straight Guy.

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 3:12 am 
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Cappycap wrote:
Hell, I wouldn't be surprised if Torg's parents were Kada and Calix.


I can conclusively state that I am not one of Torg's parents. ;)

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 Post Posted: Sun Jul 06, 2008 5:07 am 
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But you're Alt-Calix. Original Calix might have gotten lucky a few more times.

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 Post Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 12:52 am 
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Quite true.

Sometimes I used to think Kada was actually a descendant of Riff and Sasha.

If Sluggy gave yearbooks to the cast, I bet Riff would get voted "most likely to accidentally blast self into Timeless Space."

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