I have a grand unified theory about this, which ties into the current storyline. Bear with me a few minutes.

In OU the 'Clotho Legacy' is said to be what happens when enough people get together, jumpstart a perpetual timeline, yada yada yada... Now what if it doesn't make Timeless Space normal? What if the Clotho Legacy causes Timeless Space to collapse? Or something else happened to cause it to collapse? Now alt-Riff said that the absence of Timeless Space is what allowed the annihilation event to occur. This strongly implies that if the safety net were intact the annihilation event wouldn't have 'mortally wounded' the dimension, but rather would have sent a ton of the dimension's inhabitants to Timeless Space. He also implied that something happened to Timeless Space and it caused the dimension to begin falling apart, with alt-Riff trying to keep the dimension together with the DFA satellites. Specifically he said that where Timeless Space was there was nothing left but a void, meaning TS used to exist there, but it went bye-bye.

Now for what I think will happen next: the DoR will be saved, or put back into its 'holding pattern' while alt-Riff tries to hold everything together. Riff (and Zoe, still holding out hope) ask alt-Riff to send them back home. Alt-Riff uses his 'dimensional windows' to recon the dimension first and notices that their dimension's Timeless Space is still there but someone there is about to do something incredibly stupid and destroy it. Alt-Riff briefs them on what to do and sends them to save their Timeless Space instead.

The reason this makes sense is that alt-Riff is a self-proclaimed master of dimensions and time. If he can do that whole 'bounce back-and-forth between dimensions' thing I'm pretty sure he could send Riff and Zoe back to around the time Schlock betrayed them to prevent the R&D Wars and stop the annihilation event retroactively. The only reason he wouldn't do this is if there was an even greater danger to their home, ie: the destruction of Timeless Space. Because even if the annihilation event were prevented, the loss of Timeless Space would mean that random dimensional traffic would cause 'blood loss' from the dimension until it was in the same state as the DoR. So the preservation of Timeless Space is paramount, and unless something bad happens to Riff and/or Zoe (and I can't see both of them dying/being permanently incapacitated/demoralized and staying in 4U City) they'll want to go back home, and the only reason they don't use the dimensional windows and alt-Riff's experience to pop right back in on Torg and co to warn them abut the R&D wars is if there was something so pressing that they literally could not wait to fix, and the only thing I can see that being is the imminent destruction of Timeless Space.

(Links coming soon BTW)

End of Line.

That is a cool idea. Yeah, because if a permanent timeline was made in TS, it would stop being TS, right? That would in effect destroy it. Hmm, another artifact of no Bun Bun, he wouldn't have stopped the pirate guy from making the town and kickstarting a new microdimension. Hmmm, must think and consider.

This is a very interesting theory. I scoffed at it at first... but the more I consider it the more sense it makes. It even simplifies some things I was considering and answers a few questions I hadn't come up with answers for. Hell... It even answers a few question I hadn't thought to ask yet.

Very nice.

Like The Malkavian... I must take time to consider.



You know, DoN Bun-Bun almost didn't survive his fight with Alien Santa... What if DoR Bun-Bun didn't? That was only a week in sluggy time before he used the Dues Ex Ovum and was thrown out of time.

Hmm, yes. Which would have reverted the power of the holidays, but left Santa still an alien monster. Oh, that would be an interesting thought to follow. Which would leave Bun-Bun stuck in TS (if he exists in DoR) as it was his interaction with himself that got him out. There's a lot of unknowns and what-ifs here, and with only two weeks to go I doubt we'll get strip-based explanations for all (if any) of them. What I wouldn't give to see Pete's notes.

One thing that is puzzling me is how the Timeless Void is different from Timeless Space. Space implies, well, space, while Void implies a lack thereof. However, there does appear to be space there as DoR Riff uses it to hold judged people. So what's the big difference, is it that Timeless Space "vanished" once it had a timeline and was no longer Timeless, or is it that having time somehow made it more vulnerable to the Event and flash-fried everyone and everything in it? And how does he use the Void to fix the dimensional barrier? Like some kind of cosmic skin graft? It's all very wibbly-wobbly. Too much linear/nonlinear/antilinear stuff at work here.

Still, I think this is one of the better explanations for tying it all together, plus we get another Oceans Unmoving (probably more action, less exposition since we pretty well know everything now there) with Riff (and Zoe?).

I know it's off-topic from your point, but him not surviving that fight would have caused a paradox, as he needed to be thrown out of time the second time in order to cause his younger self to escape in the first place.

Back on-topic I think this is an interesting point - the possibility of starting a timeline does seem to contradict with the information old-Riff has given us recently.

But I got the impression that it was all the DFA abuse that caused timeless space to be destroyed, rather than a lack of timeless space causing the DFA abuse to have consequences that it otherwise wouldn't have.

Er... not meaning to argue with you... but Captain Bun-Bun might have eventually gotten stuck in the oceans unmoving independant of his older self... freeing him from timeless space without the other one's intervention. He had plenty of enemies that would have considered that the worst possible fate. And since it was Uncle Time taking him back to the main universe... there no reason why spending longer in timeless space would have him arriving in Torg's apartment any later.

Also, I don't think time travel works that way in the sluggyverse. Schlock seems to indicate that it does not create a paradox due to the time lines diverging any time something would change the past. The long and short of it is that unless Riff's time travel tech differs greatly from Schlock's then the paradoxes he talks about have to be something other than of the Grandfather variety... that or Schlock should be missing some fingers. Can't have it both ways. Divergent timelines eliminates the potential for your classical paradoxes like the famous Grandfather paradox. I just did a big write up on the two common time travel theories shown in popular fiction over on another thread... I made it as simple as I could but it is some what confusing just due to the nature of the subject. Still if you care to read my thoughts on the matter you can find it here.

Once again I feel I must point out that since *true* magic exists in the sluggyverse all bets are off in the end. Strictly speaking nothing in the entire comic has to be even remotely logical. So all the time travel theories in the world might be irrelevant.

And I dun mind off topic as long as it doesn't derail the whole thread... and certainly not if it's pointing out why something I said is wrong. :-)



Yeah me too... but now that I went back and re-read it I'm not so sure any more.



<REDACTED>

EDIT: whoops... never mind... I got that completely backwards... nothing to see here.... move along...

I have no idea... you make a very good point.

I really need to go back and try to re-read the whole Old-Alt Riff explanation again because Pete lost me the first few times. But appreciate the clearly careful thought going into this and hope to return to it.

One additional issue that bears noting is we already know of some other MAJOR differences between DoR and Sluggy Prime. Namely that, according to Old Alt-Riff's account, he was MARRIED and working FOR Hereticorp when Schlock betrayed him in their time: http://sluggy.com/comics/archives/daily/20110516

Hmmm... Intriguing. I like this theory, Galaxy Hunter. Its always been sitting at the back of my mind that this whole mess could be connected to timeless space, ever since somebody mentioned that Calix looked like he could be related to Riff (or something like that)

Gasps!

Riff becomes Father Time!!!

You heard it here first, fellas.

'Twould be intriguing indeed, and Calix's dad does look like Riff, but he has a clear lineage established through his grandfather (who liked his dope) so it seems unlikely.

Yeah, I had mentioned that Old Riff looks a lot like Adult Calix along with several links pointing out their similarities. But that was more of an idea that Calix is simply another Alt-Riff. Also it could simply be Pete's art style. He doesn't look like young Riff from A Carnivorous Smurf For Kimmy Sue Hasenpfeffer, but the art has changed so much since the early years that you can't even use that as a reference.

That seems highly plausible. I can picture that in my mind. Look at alt-riff now he definitely looks like a Father Time Figure.

Also love Galaxy Hunters unified theory. its impressive.

A few things:

1) Re: Grumpy old-men, most of Pete's seem to look quite alike-- beards, longish hair and a popularity in bathrobes is common (Riff and Oasis' martial arts teacher especially). Still, I am curious if Father Time COULD be a real person-- or maybe if Old Riff ends up replacing Him in DoR. We may never know, though Pete's kinda giving interesting hints in his appearance. But it could be nothing.

2) We DO know that the Web and Timeless space must be connected somehow, since it collapsed when the Web did-- and Father Time and Uncle Time manage one each (or both- not clear if Fr. Time had any jurisdiction over Timeless space). Timeless Space COULD be the Web somehow, or part of some larger cosmological superstructure that undergirds space and time like the internal roof-work of a cathedral or ribs of a ship.

It is interesting that Gwynn, Sharon Gall and Zoe have all had "Fate" related dreams related to the web, or future events crtical to their own destinies.

From the New Years in the Center of the Earth plot- one I found silly/ignored at first, we also glean too interesting hints.
a) The Web did NOT exist for all time. It is predated by the dinosaurs, suggesting it may have something to do with
humanity... or perhaps the rise of magic and gods and goddesses like the Moon/Sun Twins and the Holiday Powers?

b) Something OUTSIDE the Web is dangerous/feared by the Time Spiders and Father Time. We already know Oasis is
outside it somehow. But we also learn the dinosaurs, predating the Web are also outside it. Suggesting to me it does function as some sort of matrix created magically or by human consciousness.

Anyone know the Mage RP universe? The idea of the Technocracy, and space-time itself being affected by the evolution of human consciousness and magic use sounds VERY similar to some of this. And we know Pete is a White Wolf Fan-- he did some proposed Wraith illustrations back in his Comic-Book Artist days.

Of course, Pete has also confirmed idea of Paradoxes caused by Observation in Time Travel, and of Timelines/Universes themselves being subject to an "uncertainty principal" in viewing windows. Based on real-life physics-- but also echoing the idea of Paradox screwing Magic Users who act too recklessly in the Mage system too.

Of course, I'm sure Pete's not a complete copy cat of this stuff... but its a good bet these are some of his influences.

After re-reading Old-Alt Riff's explanation of the "Buffering Function" of Timeless space, I believe we have enough evidence to suspect it IS actually the Web itself-- some function, under the oversight of Father Time and the Fate Spiders that keeps reality from unraveling- until an Annialation Event, which seems to be bound to happen in millions of Universes at once... I missed that part the first time. Even IF Riff avoids this War, could the Sluggyverse survive being pummelled by the DFA's of all those other Realities that do get to a 4U City?

We also know the Web/Timeless Space did not exist in the distant past, before human beings because the dinosaurs in the "New Years in the Center of the Earth," like Oasis are outside of it, and we are told this was specifically because they predate the Web.

It still suggests to me that Oasis is linked to some kind of divinity or force that predates, or is more powerful than normal humanity. But I am sure others have their own ideas.