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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 1:53 am 
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Uncle Time didn't exactly come out of nowhere, either. You know how something is always in the last place you look for it? Well, Uncle Time was in the one place no one had looked yet (even with Kada's map). Every other place as a possible way out had been eliminated, except for T-1 (which probably means at least some other people from OU will have a role in Sluggy Prime sooner or later, since there are now two ways out), so it makes sense that the thing that wasn't anywhere else turned out to be under the water.

This is especially true because everybody spent so much time talking in hushed tones about how dark and dangerous and mysteeeeerious (insert finger wiggling) the Oceans were.

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 3:09 am 
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Here's another hand up ---

and let me say, i finished catching up today, after finding sluggy about a year ago. Let me tell you, starting sluggy from the middle of TWR was INCREDIBLY confusing. So I jumped back to the beginning, and after reading the first year or so began to drift off. But then OU started, the concept seemed cool, and I got into it. And i returned to slogging through early sluggy simply because i had no clue (1) why bun-bun was off in TS, (2) which torg was which and which timeline was which, and (3) why anything was happening the way it was.

So tonight i feel proud. It is indeed nifty, and deus ex my ass. After reading from the holiday wars up through tonight's comic over the last couple weeks or so, I think watching the OU epilogue won't be so bad; but I already miss Stu. It was fun to see a kiki-esque mentality in a more intelligent and sedated character. TWR was moving and poignant, but i'm not sorry to leave that story's characters behind. In a rare stroke of genius, Pete's characters in the DoL were, in fact, lame. Necessary, undeniably, if we ever want to see Torg and Zoe finally get together after so many years. But OU is the hallmark of a more epic sort of tale going on underneath the romance on top, which is fantastic -- because it gives Pete the chance to give Torg and Zoe a happy ending without it being the end of the strip.

Stories are like good music; even the simplest plots work well without embellishment as long as there's counterpoint to set it off properly. And if a lead calls for a resolution, that ends the strain-- whatever the wording is. Fcuk if i know how to be truly poetic, but the point i'm making is that arguing whether something's actually a DEM or not these days is pointless. If someone didn't see something coming in a plot and it pisses them off, calling it a DEM is just a standard ad hominem attack. So i'm not going to argue it. I'm just going to enjoy it, because I like surprises. Especially when they make more sense on the second go-round.

I know you're not reading this, but Pete-- cheers! Loving it. :torg:

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 7:01 am 
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Deus ex machinas are divine interventions to resolve a *plot situation* that has gone to an unresolvable-by-internal-means position.

As such, I would NOT characterize Uncle Time saving Bun-bun as a "Deus ex Machina" for the mere fact that Bun-bun had *already* been dropped out of the Oceans Unmoving plot.

On the other hand I would characterize the appearance of real-Aylee as a sort-of Deus-ex-Machina -- not in the sense of the defeat of Cloney, but in the sense of providing an artificial way to reintroduce a friendly likeable Aylee into the cast. And an artificial way of not having Torg guilt over the demise of the villain. Her appearance as "the real Aylee" magically allowed both Torg and Pete to kill Cloney off without remorse.

(Also evil-Aylee fit into the preceding plot much more than clone-Aylee did. Aylee in the weeks/months before Torg & Riff's disappearance had already been moving to a cruel/uncaring/manager-from-hell personality shift that would have foreshadowed her eventual transformation to the ULTIMATE manager-from-hell. With the retcon that followed all this seems like a red herring in retrospect)

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 Post Posted: Thu Mar 02, 2006 11:41 am 
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Mewtarthio wrote:
Where does "Mary Sue" (loosest definition: extremely blatant surrogate author) fit in?


Should have replied to this earlier--damn my busy schedule!

"Extremely blatant surrogate author" is one definition for a Mary Sue, clearly, by it can also be used to describe "any idealized character (whether a stand-in for the author or not)." This was the meaning I had intended.

My comment was in responce (though unclearly) to one individual's suggestion that Kada's admin. privilages where a Deus ex machina, believing that she was announced to have them suddenly and unexpectedly. Having superior powers to other characters (especially those announced halfway through the story) is one of the key traits of the Mary Sue--that particular complaint, therefore, seemed much more about the Mary Sue-ish powers of a character than about a simple Deus ex machina.

Just to make things clear, I do not think that Kada is a Mary Sue, nor do I have any complaints about her abilities, beliving that they were reasonably foreshadowed. I just thought it best to throw a new term into the mix, where it applies. I'm, just getting tired of hearing people overuse/misuse the phrase Deus ex machina, is all. -_-;

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 Post Posted: Fri Mar 03, 2006 5:39 am 
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I have to admit I'm wanting to get back to the main Sluggyverse. I do like Kada and I hope she crosses over, but apart from that this storyline hasn't really grabbed me. Calix is a reasonable character but I have found the plot and the number of characters in the supporting cast a bit hard to follow at times (plus time travel really isn't my thing.) I'm also not a big fan of the bunny, although I realise that's tantamount to blasphemy.

All in all I'd like to get back to Kiki, Zoe, Torg, Aylee et al.

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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:17 am 
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Aris Katsaris wrote:
On the other hand I would characterize the appearance of real-Aylee as a sort-of Deus-ex-Machina -- not in the sense of the defeat of Cloney, but in the sense of providing an artificial way to reintroduce a friendly likeable Aylee into the cast.


It doesn't qualify as a deus ex machina simply from the standpoint that Dr. Schlock's attempts to clone Aylee were established years before the Dangerous Days arc began. In fact, I'm pretty sure they were firmly established (with Schlock acting as Aylee's psychiatrist) before Aylee even started her own webdesign company.

So, revealing that evil-Aylee was, in fact, clone-Aylee wasn't a deus ex machina: The groundwork was laid WELL before the revelation.

Justin Bacon
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 Post Posted: Mon Mar 06, 2006 3:39 am 
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Justin Bacon wrote:
Aris Katsaris wrote:
On the other hand I would characterize the appearance of real-Aylee as a sort-of Deus-ex-Machina -- not in the sense of the defeat of Cloney, but in the sense of providing an artificial way to reintroduce a friendly likeable Aylee into the cast.


It doesn't qualify as a deus ex machina simply from the standpoint that Dr. Schlock's attempts to clone Aylee were established years before the Dangerous Days arc began. In fact, I'm pretty sure they were firmly established (with Schlock acting as Aylee's psychiatrist) before Aylee even started her own webdesign company.

So, revealing that evil-Aylee was, in fact, clone-Aylee wasn't a deus ex machina: The groundwork was laid WELL before the revelation.


I hit reply, and then realized I had a fairly complex stance on this.

1. I agree that the designation of "evil crab" Aylee as Cloney is not a sudden, authorly way to cheat out of all those hard feelings. I don't think you can look at the whole arc and not decide that Pete knew Cloney was Cloney pretty soon after Aylee took over the web business (I'm sure he was planning it during A Very Big Bang). At the very least, Cloney truly distances herself from Aylee during that disastrous Halloween.

2. However, just because the gun was present in Act 1 before it went off in Act 3 doesn't mean that it's not a DeM in Act 3.

3. What really shows the value of Cloney's identification as separate from Aylee is that this fits in with Sluggy's general theme. As Aris pointed out, Cloney is distinct from the happy, likeable Aylee. This is because Pete, as always, is exploring the Tao-ic nature of good and evil. Ever since Aylee's introduction (barring the potato part), she's been a cannibal, and she's always been hated by Riff for that. This conflict had her feeling guilty about herself, afraid, angry, even rebellious at times. Obviously it had to be resolved, and this happened when she tended towards the good side (potato-eater) and reacted by going to the bad side (Cloney--note how Cloney hates the idea of her old friends, thinks the Spuddy Buddy is particularly dumb, and was transformed due to HeretiCorp hurting her [I feel that the process she went through is akin to the one in real life where a child from an abusive family becomes themselves violent]).
The device (cloning) doesn't matter. The point is that Aylee could externalize and make physical all her negative and evil tendencies, so that in the end (with the help of her friends) she could actually defeat them.
Note that after this big Aylee arc, she was mostly in the background (and really really good-natured, almost Kiki-ish); she barely had a speaking part before she went back into her coccoon. Her new form, I'm sure, will be one that once again invites some kind of conflict. 2 extraterrestrial steps forward, one extraterrestrial step back.

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