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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 4:09 am 
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Oasis is innocent?
Huh.
What seems more likely? Her being completely absolved of EVERYTHING because of original brainwashing?

Or....

Maybe the blood isn't hers.

What kind of dark magic do you think must be involved in raising the dead (if that's what happens to her)?

That just raises more questions, but I think it's a cool possibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:13 am 
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I have a prediction. We'll know when Oasis has definitely succeeded in breaking free of her programming because she'll no longer be able to power Chaz.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 9:51 am 
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migB wrote:
There was also something in the dimension of Lame.
Someone having a rather bad reputation was deemed innocent, Chaz saying something to the effect that even the worst people in DoL are innocent enough.

Do you mean Bert, who threw food at people on purpose, or Fred, who was so unbalanced that he bit the heads off of people-shaped rice cakes?

yurak wrote:
If I recall correctly Chaz has warned Torg that even the finest cut could/would kill him (no sword hugz).

Here Torg hurt himself enough to make him say "ow". That didn't kill him, but that's also where Chaz warned Torg to be careful.

A scratch was enough to kill Whisper, but I think that was because of her ethereal nature. A scratch would not be enough to kill a corporeal demon lord like Horribus.

So what about the woman that Whisper was possessing? Did Chaz kill her too? Or was she already dead and gone, her body animated only by Whisper? Or did she wake up after Torg left, freed from the demon?

(Thanks to Sluggy Niftysearch for all these links.)

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:10 pm 
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Spirantz wrote:
Oasis is innocent?
Huh.
What seems more likely? Her being completely absolved of EVERYTHING because of original brainwashing?

Or....

Maybe the blood isn't hers.

What kind of dark magic do you think must be involved in raising the dead (if that's what happens to her)?

That just raises more questions, but I think it's a cool possibility.

Both really interesting possibilities. Two more:
(3) Every time Oasis dies and is reborn, her "innocence" resets until she kills again.
(4) Chaz is not what he appears and the whole "blood of the innocent thing" has been misdirection.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 1:13 pm 
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Spirantz wrote:
Oasis is innocent?
Huh.
What seems more likely? Her being completely absolved of EVERYTHING because of original brainwashing?

Or....

Maybe the blood isn't hers.

What kind of dark magic do you think must be involved in raising the dead (if that's what happens to her)?

That just raises more questions, but I think it's a cool possibility.


My understanding is that Chaz uses a limited form of magical omniscience to apply Torg's (or whoever is using the sword) personal definition of innocence to the target.

I thought I remember Chaz saying something that strongly implied this.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 2:39 pm 
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Bunny Suction wrote:
Spirantz wrote:
Oasis is innocent?
Huh.
What seems more likely? Her being completely absolved of EVERYTHING because of original brainwashing?

Or....

Maybe the blood isn't hers.

What kind of dark magic do you think must be involved in raising the dead (if that's what happens to her)?

That just raises more questions, but I think it's a cool possibility.

Both really interesting possibilities. Two more:
(3) Every time Oasis dies and is reborn, her "innocence" resets until she kills again.
(4) Chaz is not what he appears and the whole "blood of the innocent thing" has been misdirection.


I was thinking number 3 myself, especially with the "innocent as a newborn babe" comment.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 3:20 pm 
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Well, the problem with #3 is that she has killed in this current incarnation. While she has only killed "bad guys" (really "bad guys"), she was nonetheless there to appropriate their loot to keep her family safe. It's not like she killed them and gave the loot back to those from whom it was taken, or even leave it for the authorities to determine what to do with it. I can see some of her killing being "innocent" - particularly "override B-1" and anything connected to her command to love Torg, like a giddy schoolgirl. However, vigilante justice does not appear to be part of her 'original' programming, and not very innocent-like (well, at least according to our sense of law and order)

The fact that Chaz nonetheless considers her so innocent in spite of those actions, suggests that it has less to do with her incarnations and more to do with how she is a victim of circumstances... ...from before she couldn't die - or at least before Steve Hereti got a hold of her.

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(Thanks to Sluggy Niftysearch for all these links.)
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You're welcome. ;-)
--Keeper of the Nifty

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 6:12 pm 
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swmartian wrote:
Well, the problem with #3 is that she has killed in this current incarnation.

Yeah, I thought about that but there's a work-around. Seconds prior to her last in-strip kill she was smashed headfirst into a wall. After that she began acting "different" in a way that was very conspicuously pointed out by Katie Zalia. What if she "died" due to head trauma off-panel?

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 8:21 pm 
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There was an unfinished story written by Mark Twain called "The Mysterious Stranger", that involved an angel who was able to create life, them immediately destroy it, and was still good and pure because he was a holy angel and didn't know sin. In the sense that he didn't know what sin was, so he couldn't knowingly commit it, no matter his actions.

Maybe Oasis doesn't know that killing is wrong?

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Thu Mar 30, 2017 11:08 pm 
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Chaz may not be saying that Oasis is innocent, but that the blood the body came from is.

I think that each time she is "reincarnated", her new body doesn't just appear out of nowhere, but is made from some woman's body that is taken over and converted into Oasis's image. So no matter what Oasis does, Chaz can never test her since she exists outside of the body she is using. Though I do think that Chaz could kill her.

I wonder what a DNA test of her various reincarnations would show.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:08 am 
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I'll just point this out. Take it as you will.

Chaz NEVER says "Oasis" is innocent. Chaz specifically says "that girl is as innocent as a newborn babe."

Some other things to toss in:

1. Driscoll never mentioned Oasis having seizures from using her pyrokinesis.

2. Way back when, Dr.Steve first described Oasis as "a controlled mind made human"


It's entirely possible that whoever is running around in that body ISN'T Oasis, it just calls itself that. That would explain how "that girl" can still be considered innocent after slaughtering bad guys for money. Because it was never her that did it.

What's worse is that I think Chaz KNOWS it. And for whatever reason isn't telling Torg.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 12:13 am 
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Bunny Suction wrote:
Both really interesting possibilities. Two more:
(3) Every time Oasis dies and is reborn, her "innocence" resets until she kills again.
(4) Chaz is not what he appears and the whole "blood of the innocent thing" has been misdirection.


3-- she's already killed plenty in her current life though.
4 -- I would laugh so hard if Chaz turned out to be a giant liar and it was based off something else. I'd also smack Pete for throwing out so many perfectly lined up red herrings for all these years though.


Zillatain wrote:
Chaz may not be saying that Oasis is innocent, but that the blood the body came from is.

I think that each time she is "reincarnated", her new body doesn't just appear out of nowhere, but is made from some woman's body that is taken over and converted into Oasis's image. So no matter what Oasis does, Chaz can never test her since she exists outside of the body she is using. Though I do think that Chaz could kill her.

I wonder what a DNA test of her various reincarnations would show.


My thoughts exactly. Good luck finding old blood samples though... unless hereti corp has some stashed away.
I suppose we could compare her current blood to Teresa to check for a family match though. I think that's as close as we'll manage. But Torg doesn't know about the family relation yet.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:54 pm 
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OrzBrain wrote:
My understanding is that Chaz uses a limited form of magical omniscience to apply Torg's (or whoever is using the sword) personal definition of innocence to the target.

I thought I remember Chaz saying something that strongly implied this.

The statement came from "That Which Redeems" and he said "'Innocent' is a term my master would understand." Some people interpreted this the way you are suggesting, but as I've said before its a clear misunderstanding of context. Chaz was talking to Gwen's Dimension of Lame doppelganger, and that changes everything. Everyone in the Dimension of Lame was proven innocent by the Goddess of Good when she was released from the Dimension of Pain, so Chaz couldn't be operating only under Torg's definition of Innocent. At the minimum, the Goddess seemed to accord with Torg's understanding of Innocence because that's where she gets her power from as well. Chaz's statement was to explain to Gwen that she wouldn't understand because she has never seen "true" evil (nor, presumably, true Good or Heroism), and Torg has (at that point, he'd been tortured by Hereti Corp, battled vampires, imprisoned by Dr. Steve, attacked by the Demons, etc.). How could she understand? Chaz, Torg, and the Demons were outside any context she had ever experienced before, so she had no way to compare her experiences against Torg's to get a picture of what "innocence" really is.

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:10 am 
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The Goddess and Chaz are both powered by innocence....? Now that's an interesting thought

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 Post subject: Re: Chaz and Oasis
 Post Posted: Mon Apr 03, 2017 12:40 am 
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Formless One wrote:
OrzBrain wrote:
My understanding is that Chaz uses a limited form of magical omniscience to apply Torg's (or whoever is using the sword) personal definition of innocence to the target.

I thought I remember Chaz saying something that strongly implied this.

The statement came from "That Which Redeems" and he said "'Innocent' is a term my master would understand." Some people interpreted this the way you are suggesting, but as I've said before its a clear misunderstanding of context. Chaz was talking to Gwen's Dimension of Lame doppelganger, and that changes everything. Everyone in the Dimension of Lame was proven innocent by the Goddess of Good when she was released from the Dimension of Pain, so Chaz couldn't be operating only under Torg's definition of Innocent. At the minimum, the Goddess seemed to accord with Torg's understanding of Innocence because that's where she gets her power from as well. Chaz's statement was to explain to Gwen that she wouldn't understand because she has never seen "true" evil (nor, presumably, true Good or Heroism), and Torg has (at that point, he'd been tortured by Hereti Corp, battled vampires, imprisoned by Dr. Steve, attacked by the Demons, etc.). How could she understand? Chaz, Torg, and the Demons were outside any context she had ever experienced before, so she had no way to compare her experiences against Torg's to get a picture of what "innocence" really is.


Very interesting! A nice explanation. I hadn't thought of it that way, nor that it could be interpreted in different ways, but you're right. It could be "innocent is a term [only] my master would understand" = not you, or "innocent is a term my master would understand" = there is a more accurate word, but Torg wouldn't understand it (which is how I always took it)

Chaz also emphasized that "innocence" is a relative idea-different in different societies.

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