"Respect our veterans" isn't political, but why can't you leave it at that. "They kept us from speaking German/Afghani/whatnot" is a politically controversial statement.

And stating in your first thread "they face a congress that won't support them now" is definitely a political statement! My Grandfathers both fought in WWII, guess what, they also both voted Democratic party. Why? Because they both thought that the best way to support our troops was to keep them out of war.

Also, objectively, don;t you think that if you're asked to keep out of POOP then posting things that could be controversial elsewhere probably wont go over well?


I've voted Republican on the occasions I've voted. I don't think you're accurate by calling me 'liberal' then.

I also don't think that this discussion has any bearing on, or is appropriate for this thread. Sorry to everyone else for feeding into this. I've always liked the way that the Commonwealth has observed Remembrance Day. I think the tradition is a lot more formal and meaningful than the (largely unnoticed by myself) way we observe Veterans' Day here.

No it's a fact. Read about WWII, etc. Our Veterans saved us from the evil of facism. This isn't politically controversial unless you deny that Nazis were Evil. Do you really think Nazis were nice people with our best interests in mind and no plans of conquest? Do you?



Kerry has openly bashed the troops. If you think people who hate the troops and think they are stupid support them, maybe you have a different opinion of support than I do.

He isn't the only one. Liberals hate our troops and think they are "baby-killers", that is a liberal epitaph for a troop. Do you really think this people "support" our troops?



I think if I lie down and let the liberals with sticks hit me, then I've let evil win. If I stand and voice my opinion in the face of facists who hate freedom, then I have stood the test against opression.

That is a very Machiavellian point of view. And who are we to tell the rest of the world that we are right. How do we know that ours is the "better path"? The communists think their econimic system is better than ours.


And if a moderator told you that you were not welcome in POOP because you are a conservative that is a very serious issue that needs to be resolved.

As for right now this is not the place to be having this discussion. This thread is for honoring those who fought for what they thought was right. Soldiers do not make policy. I honor all soldiers on any side of a conflict. No matter what they believe they still all have those that care for them who wish they would come back safely.

Its called Veterans Day, you honor the people who shed their blood, lost their friends, lost their limbs, their vision, their minds to keep everyone here free.

And yet you see the face of ignorance, you see the people here in this forum reliving and recreating the insults thrown to veterans. You got a problem with War, then direct it at the Politicians, do not direct it at the men who had to fight it. Nine times out of Ten, the people throwing the mud at the soldiers instead of the politicians where it BELONGS, are the same ones to cowardly to stand up and fight and who fakes an injury or flees to another country. You sirs sicken me as human being.

It is the same line of reasoning to malign a soldier as the same people during the Vietnam war who called up parents of dead soldiers and said they were glad that they were killed by the Viet Cong. It is the same sick line of reasoning to malign soldiers on Veterans Day as the idiots protesting at soldiers funerals.

You got a political agenda, then aim it at the politicians. The only thing ANYONE should ever do to a soldier is thank them for their service. If you feel otherwise, you need to go a Veterans Administration hospital and see the people missing limbs, blind or dealing with permanent insanity due to war.

Oh well, no accounting for human excrement with a political agenda that will do whatever they can to take advantage of a situation no matter how wrong or inappropriate. In short sirs, you sicken me to the bones and I truly hope you have the misfortune of meeting someone, like myself, who has served in combat, who has buried his own. At the very best after a five minute conversation with someone, you will soil yourself out of shame and embarrassment. You have absolutely no clue what those men and women have given, no clue, and you have absolutely no right to politicize or degrade them.

I find that very hard to believe, considering that some moderators have complained about the level of left-wing complacency in POOP before. You were denied access to POOP because your political comments in GC were aggressive and inflammatory, not because of the political views they contained. - Actually, ourkansas's POOP application was approved on the condition that he followed Community Standards. - Kea


I am very liberal and moderately socialist, and I have never called anyone a 'baby-killer', soldier or otherwise. I know plenty of people for whom I could say the same. If you will insist on accusing other people of ad hominem attacks, kindly stop with the fallacies, generalisations and falsehoods yourself.

I'm not going to discuss the accuracy of your other statements here, because this is not the place. Instead I will simply ask you to stop disrespecting those who have served in wars by exploiting them for your own political agenda. [content deleted - Kea]

*ANDERSON, RICHARD BEATTY

Rank and organization: Private First Class, U.S. Marine Corps. Born: 26 June 1921, Tacoma, Wash. Accredited to: Washington. Citation: For conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity at the risk of his life above and beyond the call of duty while serving with the 4th Marine Division during action against enemy Japanese forces on Roi Island, Kwajalein Atoll, Marshall Islands, 1 February 1944. Entering a shell crater occupied by 3 other marines, Pfc. Anderson was preparing to throw a grenade at an enemy position when it slipped from his hands and rolled toward the men at the bottom of the hole. With insufficient time to retrieve the armed weapon and throw it, Pfc. Anderson fearlessly chose to sacrifice himself and save his companions by hurling his body upon the grenade and taking the full impact of the explosion. His personal valor and exceptional spirit of loyalty in the face of almost certain death were in keeping with the highest traditions of the U.S. Naval Service. He gallantly gave his life for his country.

Read how screwed up that is. That is just one nice and screwed up situation that the soldiers that memorial day is for had to deal with. Its one reason for people to shut their traps, and let them have a day for themselves. If you have an anti war position, great, aim it at the Politicians or gee MOVE. Aiming any attacks at the soldiers is ignorant, misplaced and shows ones lack of mental development to see the true reason wars.

The key problem here is that "Support our Troops" is an idiom that no longer means what it seems to. When someone says "Support our Troops", they aren't really asking, simply, for the soldiers of the country to have the proper support - be that material, political or social - that they need. Instead, "Support our Troops" has come to mean - especially in the highly contentious political arena of the 21st century - "Support our War", and, by extension, our President. However, you can support the troops while opposing the war.

It's important to keep in mind that no war in the past century has involved mainland America. The closest to foreign troops on American soil has been the Japanese invasions of the Aleutian Islands, in Alaska - which, at the time, was not a state, thus not fully part of the Union. No war fought in the past century - not World Wars I or II, not Korea, not Vietnam, not the Gulf War or Afghanistan, and especially not Iraq - has kept America free of invaders. Hitler had no real intents for North America, and Japan's interests lay mostly in Asia. Thus, it is not a factual statement to say that American veterans are responsible for us not "speaking German, Russian or Arabic". We don't speak those languages out of American arrogance and economic power - the latter, for the record, being the largest part of the downfall of the Soviet Union.

Is it truly more supportive to spend money on independent contractors proven to be wasteful and inefficient? Is it truly more supportive to start an offensive with inadequate numbers and inadequate equipment? Is it truly more supportive to leave a man whose only credential seems to be his inability to address the concerns of the troops in charge of their deployment?

I'm all for "Support our Troops". We can start by bringing them home, where the supports - and their families - lay. We don't support our troops by leaving them embroiled in conflicts with no goal, no plan, and no hope.

I was thinking about the same thing at the memorial today. If the church is so anti-violence even in self-defence (turn the other cheek and all) why is it honouring battle?



As a Brit I can't tell you how much I am offended by this.

I tried to make a post defending Britains role in the wars, but I couldn't, it just didn't work. I could rant on and on about the blitz, appeasement, dambusters etc. but I dont want to turn this thread into that.

Instead:

Death Statistics courtesy of wikipedia
America: 407 thousand military. 11thousand civilian
Britain: 382thousand military, 67 thousand civilian
France: 212 thousand military, 262 thousand civilian.

A quarter of a million civilians dead. They didn't chose that.
This is were it gets harsh:

Germany: 7.5million dead. 1.8 of which were civilian
Japan: 2.6 million. 600thousand of which were civilian.

2 million dead civilians. 2 million.

Were they all Nazis? Were they all "baddies"? No.
Many were innocent, many were forced to fight, or they themselves would have been killed.

Also, that 2 million: Doesn't include the Holocaust.

Both sides suffered tremendous losses. 62 million in total. That would be like modern day Britain suddenly falling into the sea.

I visited Ypres a few years ago. The graves stretch on for miles. I saw the Menin Gate where the Last Post has been held every single day (excluding during occupation) since 1928.

Thats what today is about. Remembering the dead on all sides. The dead who didnt want to die.

Freakyboy, you got a problem with politics and war then take it out someplace else and direct it at the Politicians. You don't direct it at a day for the dead and those living with the burdens of war. Do you got that, or do I need to break it down for you? The denseness that a number of posters is displaying is legion. Go to war, get shot up, blown up, bury your own, mourn, then come back and try to politicize veterans day or a war for that matter with a clean conscience, try it and get back to me. All I'm seeing is a lot of people with ZERO experience trying to politicize something that should not be.

In short, don't put politics into Veterans day.

This discussion was started by someone else injecting politics into the day, and my trying to debunk his politics. But I'm sorry, no, I will not blithely sit down and salute and keep my peace. If the soldiers wanted a populace that did that, they would have backed the other side sixty years ago.

In short, how can I better honour the troops that "died for my freedom" than by exercising that freedom?

Despite being the original poster, I refrained from adding any response to this thread yesterday, as I was spending the afternoon at the Royal Canadian Legion, mingling with the veterans and then with my family. I'm not sure how much legitimacy I have as original poster to comment, but what the hell, I'm going to anyway.

I'm obviously Canadian, as anyone whose conversed with my knows, so I observe Remembrance Day, not Veterans' Day. This is mostly a superficial statement, since the sentiments shared by the two are mostly similar.

I never asked any of you to "support the troops." I asked you to remember them, both the living and the dead.

I titled the thread "Lest We Forget" and included LCol McRae's poem to explicitly re-inforce the intent of remembrance; I apparently wasn't explicit enough.

I put the thread in GC and not POOP because I assumed that you would all read into the intent NOT to begin a political discussion on the merits of this, or that, foreign policy; on whether the troops are patriots or pawns; on just about evrything else we routinely cycle through when the subject of professionally managed violence comes up in discussion. I apparently assumed too much as well.

I remember these fallen soldiers, a number of whom I knew personally.

Perhaps you will want to look through the list.

I remember my Grandfather, who left Louisiana for Canada and ended up flying Halifax Bombers in the Mediteranian Theatre.

So perhaps we could get our collective heads out of our POOP filled rear-ends long enough to actually remember the fallen. And personally, I don't really care about your politics or political leanings. Not when it comes to this.

Aye Freakyboy, you are honoring many dead by continuing the right to show your ignorance. Huzzah! If you got a problem with the politics Freakyboy, then start a new thread, no I'll help you out Freakyboy. I'll start one out for you. Don't forget Freakyboy, you are in good company. You can join the ranks of the people who called up the parents of the troops who died in Vietnam and then berated the soldiers bereiving parents. Kudos to you Freakyboy, you are a great person who on a day of mourning decides that he needs to bring politics into something that frankly should'nt be.

http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/03/12/060312122104.pgrezzqi.html

You are in great company my friend, may your life be short if you decide to follow such a path.

I'm sorry your thread got wrapped up in it, OldCrow. The statements I've made have been directed at ourkansas, largely, who started another thread - heavily laden with political commentary in the opening post - in GC. It's locked, but still there, so you can have a look. I think it would have been more correct for the mods to have moved his thread to POOP and left yours, unpoliticised, in GC (as it likely would have remained, had his not been locked), but we take what we're given.

Garhent, I'm mightily insulted by you comparing me with people going out of their way to denegrate the dead. I have never done such, and am not doing so now.